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Official Ancient Sailing Ships Campaign
North4003
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Posted: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 04:36 PM UTC
This is the Official Ancient Sailing Ships Campaign site. If you haven't joined us you may sign up here. http://www.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Campaigns&file=index&req=showcontent&id=828
bill_c
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Posted: Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 08:02 PM UTC
Exciting, in a sort of ancient way!
YellowHammer
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Posted: Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 09:49 PM UTC
Exciting yes. While waiting for October I've been researching and looking for things to improve my builds. One difficulty I'm facing is one of the kits I hope to build has oars that are grossly out of scale. The boat is about 1/250 scale. I'm thinking of trying to create oars from piano wire but not sure how to form the blades yet. I'm open to any ideas.
Thanks.
North4003
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Posted: Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 10:43 PM UTC
John, try Straithmore Bristol Board. It can be cut with an exacto knife,comes in various thicknesses and can be glued to wire, wood, plastic etc. using craft type glue. http://www.strathmoreartist.com/draw-bristol.html
I've used it for making model buildings. It is the outside layer over foamcoare board or a wood inner wall. You could try gluing small paddle shapes directly to the wire or you may be able to use wood and split the end and glue the paddle to the wood.
TimReynaga
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Posted: Friday, September 18, 2015 - 12:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

... One difficulty I'm facing is one of the kits I hope to build has oars that are grossly out of scale. The boat is about 1/250 scale. I'm thinking of trying to create oars from piano wire but not sure how to form the blades yet. I'm open to any ideas.
Thanks.



John, here's a repeat of a post I did on my USS Olympia build (1/230 scale) that might help:

http://www.modelshipwrights.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=183169&page=7#1676770

The kit-provided stacked boat oars werenít bad, but since I had improved the boats I decided to upgrade these as well. One option could have been to use the photoetch parts from the Gold Medal Models Olympia upgrade set, but these looked too flat to me in this relatively large scale, and the exaggerated blades seemed more like paddles than oars anyway. I finally opted to make new ones from wire.

Making these new parts was pretty simple. Using Detail Associates.022 inch brass wire (#2507), I trimmed each piece to length, making blades by crimping the ends with pliers. After sanding the blade tips to make rounded edgesÖ instant oars!

Iíve used this method before; hereís how similar oars look once painted and in place on my Revell 1/303 scale USCGC Taney model:

Test fitted in the completed Olympia boats, the new oars definitely look more in-scale than the kit parts.


Good luck with your oars John!
JClapp
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Posted: Friday, September 18, 2015 - 12:19 AM UTC
I can't say I will join the campaign, too many irons in the fire these day , but I will be watching - a favorite subject!
YellowHammer
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Posted: Friday, September 18, 2015 - 02:00 AM UTC
Brent and Tim,
Thanks for the ideas. I'll see which works best for me when we start the campaign. BTW, I've obtained some 1/285 seated armored infantry from GHQ Miniatures to crew my viking boat. They may be a little underscale for the model but I think they will be okay after I convert tthem into vikings. They are also in scale with the 6mm Roman auxiliary infantry I will be using on both boats for standing figures. Not only spearmen but also several poses from the command stands. I like to add figures to my builds whenever I can to try to give observers a better sense of scale. Looking forward to October!
North4003
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Posted: Thursday, October 01, 2015 - 01:20 AM UTC
Well, today is October 1st and our Ancient Sailing Ships Campaign is underway. So hoist the sails and man your oars it's time to head out to sea. If you haven't signed up for our year long research and build campaign then you can go to http://www.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Campaigns&file=index&req=showcontent&id=828 and join in on the fun. There is even a beautiful and stylish campaign ribbon for posting completed images to the gallery
YellowHammer
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Posted: Thursday, October 01, 2015 - 06:17 AM UTC
Well guys, I guess I'll start thibgs off. This is my first attempt at posting photos so I hope it works. These are the two ships I hope to complete. The figures will be the crews on the boats. To start things off with a smile you may notice that the illustration on the Glencoe kit has the dragon head mounted on the stern post. According to sources on the web the Glencoe kit is 1/240 scale. The bireme is marked as 1/225. The figures are 1/285 or 6mm so they will be a little small but they were the closest I could find. Once I'm done with them I hope the undersize won't be too obvious. Between now and Christmas I will also be working on an HO train layout for my grandson so I don't know how regularly I'll be able to provide updates. I'll be including historical info I've compiled with my updates. Good luck everyone with your builds.
John












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North4003
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Posted: Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 06:33 PM UTC
Some painting has taken place on my roman warship. I'm going with a dark and light
mixed wood look. I found that there were paints available in 50 BC so some color will be used.
TimReynaga
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Posted: Saturday, October 03, 2015 - 07:57 PM UTC
Sounds great Brent - post some pictures! (Looking for inspiration since I'm enlisted in the campaign but have no idea what to build for it!)
YellowHammer
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 01:10 AM UTC
Sounds good Brent. Looking forward to seeing some progress photos.

I haven't started my build yet but just looking at the Viking ship kit I will be replacing the shields and oars. I'm also considering replacing the yard and sail, which are molded together. The sail has some nice stich work and a raven emblem molded into it. I'm not really crazy about the emblem and, as molded, the sail is about a scale foot thick. I may try scratching a yard out of sprue or wire and a sail out of aluminum foil to get a better scale thickness. I also have some thin metal foil used to create wall hangings I picked up from Hobby Lobby. It's a little thicker than the cooking foil and is made specifically for molding and punching. While there were paints available to the Vikings I have not found any references mentioning the painting of their ships. So I'll be going with a weathered wood look. Maybe some color on the dragon head. I'll use the shields and figures to provide some color.

Good luck with your build.
John
TimReynaga
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 03:30 AM UTC

Quoted Text

...While there were paints available to the Vikings I have not found any references mentioning the painting of their ships. So I'll be going with a weathered wood look. Maybe some color on the dragon head. I'll use the shields and figures to provide some color.

Good luck with your build.
John



Hey John, the famous Bayeux tapestry (made in the 1070s) shows Viking ships with some pretty cool paint jobs!

YellowHammer
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 06:19 AM UTC
Hey Tim,
Hadn't seen an illustration of that tapestry. It gives me some food for thought. A couple other things I notice are figure heads on both the bow and stern posts and the use of the Norman style tear drop shields. Perhaps this a ship from the Viking colony iin Normandy.

Do you know if there is a meaning or purpose for hanging a shield from the stern? I've seen illustrations with a shield mounted high on a mast top but not from the stern. Just curious.
Thanks
John
RussellE
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 04:34 PM UTC
definitely watching this one...
North4003
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Posted: Sunday, October 04, 2015 - 11:53 PM UTC
Hello Ancient Sailing Ship Modelers. Here is a picture of my subject for this campaign, the Minicraft Roman Warship. It is a small galley with a single bank of 26 or so oars and shallow draft. They were referred to as a monoremus or triaconters and we used in troop transport, coastal shipping and piracy patrols; in fact these and larger penteconters were employed much like modern US Coast Guard cutters.
North4003
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Posted: Monday, October 05, 2015 - 12:13 AM UTC
The molding on the Minicraft Monoremus is very good. It is listed as 1/250 scale but is actually close to 1/72 scale using plank, and shield size as talismans. She will be christened Ursa Minor or the Little Bear. I thought about the color pallet for Ursa Minor, prior to beginning kit assembly. There were several greens, blues, yellows, reds, whites and blacks available in the Roman Republic and Empire. Best guess is that these colors would be less intense and less durable than today's pigments. To that end I've decided to stick with more shalacked woods with some blue and blood red for hull colors. I like white for the masts at this point.

Humbrel Clear Doped Linen Applied to the hull and decks.

Humbrel and Model Master paint selection. Brushes only please.
North4003
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Posted: Monday, October 05, 2015 - 01:15 AM UTC
For those wishing to join the Ancient Sailing Ships Campaign here is a short list of plastic ancient sailing ships to build.

Aurora Roman Warship
Aurora Viking Longship
Zvezda Greek Trireme
Zvezda Roman Trireme
Zvezda Carthaginian Trireme
Zvezda Medieval Ship Thomas (Can be converted to a Roman Merchant)
Zvezda Medieval Row Boat
Revell Viking Ship
Emhar Viking Ship
Aoshima Viking Ship
Aoshima Roman Warship
Minicraft Roman Warship
Heller Nina Good example of 14th and early 15th Century Caravel.
Heller Pinta Good example of 14th and early 15th Century Caravel.
Heller Roman Warship
Pyro Roman Merchant Ship
Pyro Persian Gulf Dhow Leave off the guns and port holes to backdate.
Pyro Nina
Pyro Fijian Outrigger
Pyro Chinese Junk Leave off the machine guns to backdate.
Pyro Burmese Pirate
North4003
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Posted: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 - 06:25 AM UTC
It has been a few days, what is everyone up to?
YellowHammer
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Posted: Thursday, October 08, 2015 - 12:15 AM UTC
Hi guys,

While the paper mache terrain is drying on my grandsonís train layout I thought I would get started on my build of the Viking ship. Thereís only 14 parts total but itís not going to be that simple of a build. Iíve glued the deck into the one piece hull. Glencoe made a terrible decision to put the pour plugs on top of the deck. There are two indentions, aft of the oar stand and before the mast holes that I hope to be able to fill with minor effort. However the other item has me perplexed. There is a round plug that stands up out of the foredeck. I was going to remove it and try to sand the deck smooth but in looking at the instructions, it is shown in steps 3 and 4 with the anchor placed beside it as if it is intended to be a cap stand or anchor post. Iíve not been able to locate any reference to the Vikings using this feature on their ships. Anybody got any thoughts?






Iím also working on replacing the sail with one made of a brass wire spar and aluminum foil sail. The kit sail has no features except a raised image of a bird that I donít care for and is overly thick. Iíve made an attempt to scratch some oars using the brass wire technique Tim mentioned above but Iím having trouble crimping the wire. Iím going to try to get some straight copper or silver wire at around 0.2 mm thickness and give it another go.

In preparing for this build I did some research to try and identify what kind of ship this model is to represent since the kit title is simply Viking Ship. From what Iíve been able to gather it has features of both Viking warships and merchant ships. Assuming the info I found on the web stating the kit is about 1/240 scale is correct; the kit length of 90mm and width of 19mm equates out to 70 ft by 14.8 ft. The kit provides 12 sea chests and 12 shields per side but only provides 11 oars. (One of the reasons Iím scratching new oars)

The kit dimensions place the ship in the mid-size range, most closely matching the dimensions of the karv (merchant) style ship found at Tune. The partial remains of the Tune ship indicate approximate dimensions of 72 ft by 14.3 ft, pierced for 11-12 pairs of oars. The Oseberg ship, usually classified as a karv style but often mistaken as a drekkar, was 70 ft long and 16.6 ft wide. Interestingly enough, the mast survived with this ship and was about 10 m high. A portion of the sail was also recovered with red stripes, that supports period artist renderings. Oars were also recovered which measured about 18 ft with longer oars for use near the bow and stern. Iíll be using this length to scratch the oars.

The karv style ships typically had raised decks fore and aft where the rowers sat with the central portion of the ship without a deck to be used for storing cargo. The kit has a well deck but places the rowers here as in the warships. I havenít been able to find an illustration of a warship with the raised deck features. The raised decks were also found on smaller fishing vessels.

The warship designs typically had higher length to width ratios than the merchant ships, with three types identified being based on their lengths and number of oars. Different spellings were found but the types were snekkja, drekkar, and skeid, going from smaller to larger. The kit ship falls into the drekkar range, being larger than the snekkja type, (typified by the Skuldelev 5 ship [55.5 ft by 8ft, crew 30]); and smaller than the skeid type (typified by the Skudelev 2 ship [97.5 ft by 12.4 ft, rowing crew 60 on 15 pairs of oars]).

Well enough of the history lesson for now. Iím always open to comments or suggestions if you see somewhere I can improve the build.
Thanks





North4003
Joined: August 01, 2012
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Posted: Thursday, October 08, 2015 - 03:57 AM UTC
John, good progress on the Viking Ship. I like your idea of replacing the oars, spar and sails.
TimReynaga
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Posted: Saturday, October 10, 2015 - 10:13 AM UTC

Quoted Text

... Glencoe made a terrible decision to put the pour plugs on top of the deck. There are two indentions, aft of the oar stand and before the mast holes that I hope to be able to fill with minor effort. However the other item has me perplexed. There is a round plug that stands up out of the foredeck. I was going to remove it and try to sand the deck smooth but in the instructions, it is shown in steps 3 and 4 with the anchor placed beside it as if it is intended to be a cap stand or anchor post. Iíve not been able to locate any reference to the Vikings using this feature on their ships. Anybody got any thoughts?


Hi John,

I have in my stash an older Ringo version of the little Glencoe Viking ship kit (itself a re-release of the 1950ís Ideal Toy Coprporation original...) Anyway, the indentations on the deck to which you refer are knockout pin marks, unfortunate but typical byproducts of the injection molding process. You could fill them and try to preserve the scribed deck detail (good luck with THAT), but Iíd simply replace the deck with scribed plastic sheet. Evergreen .020 inch ďN Scale Car SidingĒ (2020), which represents 3ľ inch spacing in 1/160, is great stuff. Replacing the deck with it would be much easier than repairing the kit part, and the molding is more precise and finer than the kit deck anyway.

Similarly with that cylindrical plug on the foredeck Ė Iíve never seen it on any depiction of a Viking ship, so my guess is that it is a molding artifact, too. Iíd remove it or simply replace the foredeck.

Whatever course you end up choosing, I like your cool and unusual project choice. Canít wait to see how you make your little Viking crew!

YellowHammer
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Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 12:10 AM UTC
Hey Everybody,
Tim, you're idea is food for thought. I agree the evergreen sheet would provide better deck detail. However since I already glued the kit deck in place it may be more trouble in the long run as I would also have to scratch all the deck items as well. If I'm unable to fill the knock out plugs properly I may try to camoflauge them with standing crew or stores on deck. The busier the deck the better.

Also I have discovered since I removed the sprues from the bag that the exterior surface of the hull is smooth. No planking represented at all. I'm hoping the oars and shields will cover most of the hull and draw the eyes away from the smooth hull. I don't think I've got the skills to try to scribe lines into the hull without making it look like a tic-tac-toe game. I'm also toying with the idea of displaying the kit in a water setting as opposed to displaying on a stand. That would be another first for me and would also help hide the smooth hull since the ships had such low free board very little would show.

The spar and sail are coming along. I'm having to be careful with the foil. In forming the sail billows any irregularity on my table surface imprinnts into the foil so I'm constantly having to smooth it and start again. I'm using a short piece of dowel like a rolling pin for smoothing. I even have to be careful forming by hand as fingerprints can also imprint in the foil.

Still having difficultly in scratching the oars in getting any two to look alike. I hit upon the idea of using sewing needles for the oars. I'll dip the eyes into white glues to fill the hole and then cut/file to length. I'll post photos when I make some more progress.

I'm also trying to think through the rigging for the boat. I'm going to try and keep it simple since I think that's what the vikings would have done since the mast was set up and taken down with some regularity. I'm probably going to use three lateral stays on each side and a single for and aft stay to support the mast. Simple pulleys were used in raising and lowering the sail so I'm thinking of just bringing the spar lines together with a dot of glue and just painting the dot to represent the pulley. I'll attach the pulley with a loop of line at the top of the mast and then run the line down to a cleat near the base of the mast. I'll also have running rigging from the ends of the spar and the bottom of the sail routed to points on the hull sides.

If you guys think of anything else I need to consider or other ideas let me know. Thanks!
RussellE
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Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 08:16 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Hey Everybody,
Tim, you're idea is food for thought. I agree the evergreen sheet would provide better deck detail. However since I already glued the kit deck in place it may be more trouble in the long run as I would also have to scratch all the deck items as well. If I'm unable to fill the knock out plugs properly I may try to camoflauge them with standing crew or stores on deck. The busier the deck the better.




Hey John, since you've already glued the deck, how about still pursuing Tim's suggestion, but instead of replacing the kit deck, just sheet straight over the top with the evergreen? Creative positioning of the joins at the plank edges would allow you to go around the molded features...
YellowHammer
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Posted: Sunday, October 11, 2015 - 09:14 AM UTC
Russell,
I've been thinking about Tim's suggestion all day. I wanted this to be a learning build for me as well as having fun with a subject I'm really interested in.

I think I'm going to try to remove the deck and get the Evergreen sheet. Really the only things I'll need to scratch are the rowers chests and the deck bracing around the base of the mast. I've got some Plastruct pieces that may help make these features. This will also allow me to get rid of those elevated fore and aft decks which really weren't a feature of the warshipa. I can use the current deck as a template for the new deck's shape.

I used gel type CA glue in attaching the deck. Other than slowly prying the piece out do you guys have any suggestions on removing the deck?
Thanks
John