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Panther Ausf.F w/7.5cm L/100
CMOT
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ARMORAMA
#406
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Posted: Sunday, March 01, 2015 - 08:27 PM UTC
Dragon Models has release a new "paper" Panther with a long 7.5cm L100 gun and Kevin Brant has a look and builds it up.

Link to Item

If you have comments or questions please post them here.

Thanks!
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, March 01, 2015 - 08:51 PM UTC
Wouldn't the KwK 8.8 cm. L71 still have better performance and penetration than the proposed KwK 7.5 cm. L 100? And the 88 was already in full production. Not to mention that a lot of the fighting was now in urban areas, and vehicles with very long gun barrels tended to get stuck in narrow city streets, or get their barrels blocked by obstructions such as poles, etc. Probably just another impractical "bigger is better" solution.
iowabrit
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Posted: Sunday, March 01, 2015 - 09:00 PM UTC
looks pretty good. One question, the brass cowl over the mantlet, does it come preformed or do you have to roll it to get the shape?
I can't see it in any of the box content pics...
SgtRam
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Posted: Sunday, March 01, 2015 - 09:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text

looks pretty good. One question, the brass cowl over the mantlet, does it come preformed or do you have to roll it to get the shape?
I can't see it in any of the box content pics...



Sorry guess I missed it in content photos, it is pre-formed.

SgtRam
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#197
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Posted: Sunday, March 01, 2015 - 09:33 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Wouldn't the KwK 8.8 cm. L71 still have better performance and penetration than the proposed KwK 7.5 cm. L 100? And the 88 was already in full production. Not to mention that a lot of the fighting was now in urban areas, and vehicles with very long gun barrels tended to get stuck in narrow city streets, or get their barrels blocked by obstructions such as poles, etc. Probably just another impractical "bigger is better" solution.



From my understanding, the longer the barrel, the more velocity of the round, thus higher penetration. Now as the Turm was designed for the 88, it probably would have been better. The L/100 was requested by Hitler in 1943. But now that you say the 88, it will be the next release from Dragon, use this kit with an existing 88 L/71 barrel....
Biggles2
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Posted: Sunday, March 01, 2015 - 09:41 PM UTC
How about a KwK 8.8 cm. L100 gun? Actually, their Flak 10.5 cm gun, being essentially a scaled up Flak 8.8 cm, and developed into a PaK, or KwK, probably would have made a much more potent weapon than the cumbersome 12.8 cm.
SDavies
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Posted: Monday, March 02, 2015 - 01:14 AM UTC
I am sure its a nice kit, but the length of the gun barrel is silly
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Monday, March 02, 2015 - 03:56 PM UTC

Quoted Text

Dragon Models has release a new "paper" Panther with a long 7.5cm L100 gun and Kevin Brant has a look and builds it up.

Link to Item

If you have comments or questions please post them here.

Thanks!



Thanks, Darren! As long as DRAGON is dedicating themselves to German stuff, an all-new "Panther II" is quite in order. Their old, ancient one (#6024..?) is hopelessly out-dated and a lot of the details are just plain wrong- Glaring examples: the "Schmallturm" is not "schmall" AT ALL, the road-wheel spacing, positions and the actual number of road-wheels are in dire need of attention and corrections, along with the corresponding trailing arms and the lower hull all need correcting... References for the Panther II can be readily found in the RYTON "Panther" book... Opinions..?
Hohenstaufen
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Posted: Monday, March 02, 2015 - 11:59 PM UTC
Yerse... as Biggles says I think we can see why they didn't go ahead with the L100! Not just city streets, what about trees and rough ground? If you went into a sudden dip, I could see the muzzle getting buried in the ground! Wouldn't the "production" vehicle likely have steel wheels? None of this takes from the kit of course, but one does wonder about so called "paper panzers".
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 08:31 PM UTC

Quoted Text


Quoted Text

Wouldn't the KwK 8.8 cm. L71 still have better performance and penetration than the proposed KwK 7.5 cm. L 100? And the 88 was already in full production. Not to mention that a lot of the fighting was now in urban areas, and vehicles with very long gun barrels tended to get stuck in narrow city streets, or get their barrels blocked by obstructions such as poles, etc. Probably just another impractical "bigger is better" solution.



From my understanding, the longer the barrel, the more velocity of the round, thus higher penetration. Now as the Turm was designed for the 88, it probably would have been better. The L/100 was requested by Hitler in 1943. But now that you say the 88, it will be the next release from Dragon, use this kit with an existing 88 L/71 barrel....



For that matter, couldn't one just rifle an 8.8cm L/71 barrel from an old Tiger II or the spares box? Of course, DRAGON will go ahead and produce an "ENTIRELY NEW!!!" kit...
Biggles2
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Posted: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 08:37 PM UTC
I would definitely go with the 88 L71...I'm pretty sure RB doesn't make a 75mm L100.
SgtRam
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Posted: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 08:53 PM UTC
You would have to scratch build a bigger mantlet. or wait for the dragon kit....LOL
M4A1Sherman
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Posted: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 09:02 PM UTC

Quoted Text

You would have to scratch build a bigger mantlet. or wait for the dragon kit....LOL



I think I'll pass on it altogether... As far as my German stuff goes, I'm confining myself to the major types, one or two different Ausfuehrungs are enough. At most, three; the Pz.Kpfw.IIIs and IVs being good examples...

Give me US and Allied-types, any time...
accelr8
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Posted: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 - 09:51 PM UTC
Not to further derail the topic, but when i saw the box art my first thought was "there were already problems with the panther turret balancing due to lack of a bustle, how would adding a gun that's possibly 50% heavier not magnify that issue?". Did they intend to install a massive breechblock to counterweight the barrel? How would that massive breech impact the already limited space inside the schmalturm?
404NotFound
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Posted: Sunday, May 10, 2015 - 11:14 PM UTC
Definitely late to the party here, but I'd recently gone ahead and ordered this kit. And while it has yet to arrive, I am already having buyer's remorse.

Agreed on the odd and cartoonish appearance of the barrel, which I'm not sure I can get past, particularly as I'd seen the build photos of another poster here.

As it would happen, I ran across this in the ancient Osprey Vanguard 21 "The PzKpfw V Panther" book:

"Some discussion did take place in 1944 concerning extension of the 75mm' calibre length to L/100, but there was general agreement that the gun's metallurgical limits had already been reached; in any event the installation of such a weapon would have required so drastic a redesign of the turret that it could have been accommodated only with the greatest difficult. The Allies learned of the idea during interrogation of an officer prisoner taken in Normandy, an officer evidently of some seniority, since he had been present at the discussions. There is a distinct probability that the prisoner was deliberately feeding his captor the sort of worthless information he knew would cause serious concern if believed; however, although a copy of the interrogation report was forwarded to the relevant technical bureau, it caused little comment as the British too were fully aware of the limitations of gun construction."

So... I'm going to take a look at this when I get it, and likely ditch the barrel for something else. Perhaps I'll attach a muzzle brake to a Jordi Rubio Panther F barrel in my parts bin or try the 88mm option, grabbing the mantlet from my old DML Panther II kit. We'll see.
GLAARG
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Posted: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 - 03:49 AM UTC
The biggest problems with Dragon's armor kits are-

1. They are overpriced.
2. They are unfun.

Now, the overpriced thing is relative. These are old kits which show up on EBay for 30-40 bucks with 15-20 bucks shipping, from Hong Kong or China. Get them, en-masse, into a private seller in the U.S. and you could take five bucks off the shipping alone while providing same-week delivery.

The newer, Amusing Hobby and now Meng Models kits are 60 bucks and can often be found with free shipping, if you get them in the 'while hot' phase of early sales and accept long delivery, from Asia, on a slowboat.

The Panther F, unless it's the Smart Kit, reviewed here-

http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/german/dml6403reviewcs_1.html

Is NOT an F. It lacks a correct turret, the correct engine hatches and drivers hatch options. And the right road wheels. It's closer to an F than the 'II' it was first released as but that's neither here nor there.

You can pick up any Panther with a Schmallturm and be as close as the Dragon kit is and if you use the Tamiya, it will fit better.

Now, with regards to 'fun' the obvious things are the mantlets and guns. Even Trumpeter, with their E-50/E-75 series, gave you options on L-70/71/100 in their respective boxings but more importantly, these barrels need to be slide molded so that you can deal with a single seam and avoid the need for an aluminum part. Stick a coat hangar up the barrel and it will never sag.

Other things, which should be in EVERY 1946 kit include Sperwer I/II night vision, complete with power leads and ballistic protection boxes AND stowage bin, on the rear hull. Options for a turbine engine, options for an MP44 alternative to the lost MG34 gun and at least three crew with 1945-46 battlegear, including full NBC protection and radiation smocks with body armor vests. Molded antenna (including command variant) too. No more wire in the finger or 'stretch ye some sprue' nonsense.

It would also be so very nice to have all clear parts molded as a single piece, rather than inserts (cupola periscope, driver's viewer) and for that matter, 'simplification' setups without cupola but a simple, slide and lift, hatch, as with the E-series.

Periscopes which are inserts are a pain. Periscopes which can be painted in-situ, masked with tape and then fit down into inserts are super.

Where Dragon has the potential to pull a rabbit out of the hat is in the simplification technique that they applied to their Panzer IV. Take the kits down to 100-150 parts instead of the mindboggling 1,300+ of the more recent Trumpeter et al. and you allow the younger crowd to get on with the fun part, which is painting.

To which, I would add one other recommendation and that is the use of professional artists (calling MiG Jimenez) to provide COLOR painting guides similar to the Amusing Hobby E-100, and diecut masks, for everything. Akin to the Montex setup shown here-

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Montex-Super-Mask-1-35-Panther-Ausf-A-for-Dragon-Kit-Spraying-Stencil-K35016/122514090137?hash=item1c8668a899:g:WNMAAOSwJH1ZJcgY

Do these things, while controlling for price in a modern market which has to include S&H from online dealers into the final buy/no-sale decision and Dragon could renovate a lot of their lineup.

If not, what was innovative in the 1990s is doomed to become the next Revell/Monogram as all these Chinese Startups outpace them in the 'Museum Piece' race to see who can have a model with more parts than the 1:1 original.

It's a niche market but it could very well be the biggest niche. The majority of potential Armor buyers don't like paying 60 bucks for a 3D puzzle. See: WoT series Italeri releases.

Oh, two other things: If you are going to go with a fixed suspension kit, make sure it is a combat loaded one. And consider a plastic base. Tanks which sit high on their suspension arms look funny. And a plastic base with a (Gothic Script if German) name plate adds class as well as a safe handling method.