login   |    register
World War II
Discuss WWII and the era directly before and after the war from 1935-1949.
Hosted by Rowan Baylis
REVIEW
1:48 Bf 109 F-2
TedMamere
Visit this Community
Moselle, France
Joined: May 15, 2005
KitMaker: 5,653 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 02:30 AM UTC


Here is a review of Zvezda's new 1:48 scale Messerschmitt Bf109 F-2 kit. Despite some minor issues, it is the best kit of this variant in this scale now.

Link to Item

If you have comments or questions please post them here.

Thanks!
alpha_tango
Visit this Community
Germany
Joined: September 07, 2005
KitMaker: 5,609 posts
Model Shipwrights: 16 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 02:43 AM UTC
Hi Jean-Luc

we also had this wheel well discusssion in the announcement thread and the angle wheel wells were present well into the F-2 series. Someone (Sergey or Mansur) mentioned it was typical for one manufacturer.

When building my ICM kit I discussed this already with Lynn Ritger and he did not know a fixed attribute to decide between round/ angled wheel well .. so it is good to have some refs for your special machine. (feel free to pay me a visit )

I hope someone (Eagle Editions pleeeeeeze) will do Mölders markings one day!!!!! there are pix and a profile in one of teh Jagdwaffe series books that show the angled wheel well)

Thanks for the review!!

all the best

Steffen
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,302 posts
Model Shipwrights: 20 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 04:06 AM UTC
Hi Jean-Luc

Thanks for the detailed review!

I ordered the kit from Model Hobbies the other day, so fingers crossed it won't have the problem with the canopy... I'll give a holler if it does.

All the best

Rowan
FalkeEins
Visit this Community
England - South East, United Kingdom
Joined: March 07, 2005
KitMaker: 862 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 07:23 AM UTC
thanks for the review Jean-Luc. Looks like Zvezda decided to produce the ultimate 48th scale 109 ..and aeroscale first again with the review!

@ Steffen - the latest JG51 booklet from Kagero has Mölders decals...

http://falkeeins.blogspot.com
alpha_tango
Visit this Community
Germany
Joined: September 07, 2005
KitMaker: 5,609 posts
Model Shipwrights: 16 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 07:43 AM UTC
Thanks Neil, but I need the correct ones for his early F-2 (Jagdwaffe Vol.2/4 pg 378) which have national insignia over the score marks ...

cheers

Steffen
TedMamere
Visit this Community
Moselle, France
Joined: May 15, 2005
KitMaker: 5,653 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 07:46 AM UTC
Hi Steffen,


Quoted Text

...the angle wheel wells were present well into the F-2 series. Someone (Sergey or Mansur) mentioned it was typical for one manufacturer.



I suppose it makes sense to think that if wings with angled wheel wells were already available in numbers or specifically manufactured in a factory, they wouldn't have hold production to change to round wheel wells from one day to another and would have used what was already available and fitted it to the airframes?

However, from the references I have (not many... ) it seems the round wheel wells were more common. I still think it would have been better to do it like Hasegawa did.

Jean-Luc
alpha_tango
Visit this Community
Germany
Joined: September 07, 2005
KitMaker: 5,609 posts
Model Shipwrights: 16 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 08:02 AM UTC
Well, Jean-Luc some food for though from HS:
(btw Prien is also my primary source for Bf 109 F-K)

Jeff Webb:

Quoted Text

There doesn't seem to be anything conclusive saying that the change-over was made starting with a werknummer XXXX or even during a production batch. Prien and Rodeike's "Messerschmitt Bf 109 F, G & K Series" (Schiffer 1995 ISBN0-88740-424-3) says "A large part of the F-2 series retained the squared off wheel wells of the E series."(p. 15) If Prien and Rodeike, who trolled through reams of factory and RLM records, can't establish a definite WNr or production batch, there's probably no such information available. All that's left is some deductive reasoning...

Another thing to consider is that F-2s were built by five different manufacturers from November 1940 through to August 1941; WNr. 6674 was built, probably in January, 1941 by WNF in the WNr. batch 6651-6822, which were built between January and April (p.10), plus there is a photo of WNr. 6743, also built by WNF, flown by Robert Olejnik, Staffelkapitän of 1./JG3, which also shows circular wheel wells.(p.18) This is a possible indication that F-2s built by WNF may have introduced the round wheel wells in January or February 1941. [Note:Other F-2s with circular wheel wells include WNr. 8919 (p.198) (Messerschmitt Regensburg, 8901-9001, March to April) and WNr. 9641 (p.196) (Ar War, 9535-9734, June to August).]

On the other hand WNr. 5458 (Hptm Hans von Hahn, Gruppe Kommodore of I./JG3) from the WNr. batch 5401-5558, built by Ar War (Arado Warnemünde) between February and May 1941, has the squared off wheel wells (p.17)...

In summary, there are no hard and fast rules on when circular wheel wells replaced the squared off version. They were certainly used on aircraft manufactured by WNF between January and April 1941, whereas those built by Ar War were still using squared off wells later than February. Confused? That's fairly typical of German aircraft of WW 2.



Lynn Ritger:

Quoted Text

The very earliest batches had them...
although to be honest, I don't know that anyone's ever established a FIRM cut-off point for the squared edges on F's. The earliest numeric series is a batch of 158 aircraft from Arado, WNr 5401 to 5558, followed by 33 from Messerschmitt-Regensburg (5601 to 5790), then another 172 from WNF (6651-6822). One thing I found while digging through airframe differences is that usually an F with the squared-off wheel wells, shallow oil cooler, small intake and narrow prop will also have the very early wingtip lights which were just small bulbs placed in cutouts- they didn't have the faired-in plexiglas covers. The port exhaust bank on these earliest birds also lacked the turned down sheet metal plate to prevent exhaust gas ingestion in the supercharger intake.




Quoted Text

... if the early F has squared off wheel wells, then it won't have the turned-down exhaust shield over the port exhausts, and will have the small bulb covers over the wingtip lights rather than the full clear plexi covers which followed the contours of the wing. I've gone through probably hundreds of photos trying to get a better idea of how those details stacked up, and these three characteristics are GENERALLY seen all together on specific airframes... I qualified that because sure as hell, someone will pop up with a photo of a single F cobbled together from spare parts which will have some sort of mix-n-match variation.



Sergey wrote here as response to Rowans question:


Quoted Text

Bf 109F-0, F-1 made by WNF (actually F-1 were made only there), Bf 109F-2 made by WNF and Erla have had "square" wells. All F-4 have had round wells.



all the best

Steffen
Orangebarrelman
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: October 31, 2009
KitMaker: 71 posts
Model Shipwrights: 1 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 09:07 AM UTC
Also doing some simple sprueology the lower wing and all parts that appear to have something to do with the wheel well cutouts are on the same sprue. Looks to be a simple matter to replace the sprue when it comes time to do an F-4.
GastonMarty
Visit this Community
Quebec, Canada
Joined: April 19, 2008
KitMaker: 591 posts
Model Shipwrights: 14 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 06:47 PM UTC

Quoted Text

thanks for the review Jean-Luc. Looks like Zvezda decided to produce the ultimate 48th scale 109 ..




-You mean the ultimate Me-109 of ANY variant in ANY scale so far, don't you? Even the new 1:32nd Eduard Emil has been shown by Trumpeteer to be 6 mm longer than factory drawings... (Even so, the much better Trumpeteer profile match does not save it from many other awful errors...)

I do not think you will find 6 mm errors on the Zvezda Me-109F, or 0.6 mm errors for that matter!

Gaston
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,302 posts
Model Shipwrights: 20 posts
Posted: Sunday, May 09, 2010 - 08:51 PM UTC
Hi again

I have to agree with Jean-Luc - I'd have moulded rounded wells with "cutbacks" like Hasegawa so modellers could decide what was appropriate to the particular aircraft they were building. I'd have thought that would be both cheaper for Zvezda and more versatile for us, but who am I to argue with marketing people...

All the best

Rowan
KosachevSergey
Visit this Community
Russia
Joined: February 12, 2009
KitMaker: 89 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 - 06:48 AM UTC


Quoted Text

However, from the references I have (not many... ) it seems the round wheel wells were more common.



For F-4


Quoted Text

I still think it would have been better to do it like Hasegawa did.



Hasegawa hasn't provided canvas in the wells, but Zvezda has made it (BTW no one 109 in any scale have it):

And it's impossible to make correct "universal" wells. Future F-4 will have whole new wing with panel lines and round wells.


Quoted Text

- Two sets of exhausts (one not used in this kit).



Both used, one for opened engine and another one for closed.


Quoted Text

Very strange indeed is the presence on the sprue of an early rounder E-1/E-3 type of canopy!?



No, some 109F had early canopies (Hrabak's and Carganico's planes to name a few). One of the Hrabak's F-2:


Some F's even had 109E seats (Zvezda wanted to include this seat but later canceled):


Sergey.
alpha_tango
Visit this Community
Germany
Joined: September 07, 2005
KitMaker: 5,609 posts
Model Shipwrights: 16 posts
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 - 07:00 AM UTC
Hello Guys

I do not want to sound opportunistic but I am definitely on Sergeys site this time... and you guys know that I don't fear a dispute (even if I don't like a bar brawl)....

thanks for the additional pictures and explanations Sergey!

cheers

Steffen
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,302 posts
Model Shipwrights: 20 posts
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 - 07:14 AM UTC
Hi Sergey

Really interesting. Is that a standard 'E seat? With the additional framing and the way the belts run it looks like a different type again, or some sort of hybrid...

All the best

Rowan
KosachevSergey
Visit this Community
Russia
Joined: February 12, 2009
KitMaker: 89 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 - 09:19 AM UTC

Quoted Text

Really interesting. Is that a standard 'E seat? With the additional framing and the way the belts run it looks like a different type again, or some sort of hybrid...



I am not sure, but when I talked to the guy who did 3D-model for Zvezda, he has told that he thinks that this seat from 109E, probably a little bit modified. Maybe Mansur will tell more precisely, if memory serves me well, he mentioned other photos with such seat.

Sergey.
mmoustaf
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: April 29, 2010
KitMaker: 9 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 - 09:37 AM UTC
Yes, Galland's 6711, Pingel's aircraft, Trautloft's 5671 had this style of seat (photos of Pingel's aircraft is available on the net from the same point of view as Black 2)

Concerning the stiffeners - they were on ALL F-2s I will show the report of 1943 where all werknummers with stiffeners are described.

The stiffeners were installed on all planes before 21 July 1941 due to RLM directive
TedMamere
Visit this Community
Moselle, France
Joined: May 15, 2005
KitMaker: 5,653 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 - 10:18 AM UTC
Hi all,

Very interesting indeed! Thank you for your input Sergey and Mansur.

For the E-3 canopy hood explanation however, I'm a little bit dissapointed. I have hoped Zvezda would make a Bf 109 E...

I will have to adjust my review a little I guess...

Jean-Luc
TedMamere
Visit this Community
Moselle, France
Joined: May 15, 2005
KitMaker: 5,653 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 - 08:20 PM UTC
Hi all,

I have updated my review slightly so it reflects better what has been said above.


Quoted Text


Quoted Text

- Two sets of exhausts (one not used in this kit).



Both used, one for opened engine and another one for closed.



In the instructions the second set of exhausts (Parts A65/A66) is shown "not to be used" on the parts layout. It does not appear on the instructions drawings neither.

Jean-Luc
mmoustaf
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: April 29, 2010
KitMaker: 9 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, May 10, 2010 - 11:20 PM UTC
Report on external stiffeners for F-2

Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,302 posts
Model Shipwrights: 20 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 02:18 AM UTC
Hi again

My kit has just arrived and I'm glad to be able to report that the clear parts are fine - no warping.

All the best

Rowan
Roxter
Visit this Community
Rigas, Latvia
Joined: July 04, 2007
KitMaker: 268 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 03:27 AM UTC
Mansur, please comment on flat wing upper surfaces - no panel lines? Thanx in advance.

Arseny
TedMamere
Visit this Community
Moselle, France
Joined: May 15, 2005
KitMaker: 5,653 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 11:11 PM UTC
Hi Rowan,


Quoted Text

My kit has just arrived and I'm glad to be able to report that the clear parts are fine - no warping.



Nice to hear that. I will have to ask for a replacement from the French importer T2M...

Jean-Luc
Merlin
Staff MemberSenior Editor
AEROSCALE
#017
Visit this Community
United Kingdom
Joined: June 11, 2003
KitMaker: 17,302 posts
Model Shipwrights: 20 posts
Posted: Wednesday, May 12, 2010 - 11:21 PM UTC
Hi Jean-Luc

Yes, it doesn't look like a general fault, so it's definitely worth chasing up a replacent.

It is a really impressive kit! It's so tempting to start a build, but I know I mustn't!

All the best

Rowan
TedMamere
Visit this Community
Moselle, France
Joined: May 15, 2005
KitMaker: 5,653 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 13, 2010 - 12:34 AM UTC
Hi Rowan,


Quoted Text

It is a really impressive kit! It's so tempting to start a build, but I know I mustn't!



Same here! I wish I had two heads and four hands!

Jean-Luc
mmoustaf
Visit this Community
United States
Joined: April 29, 2010
KitMaker: 9 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Monday, May 17, 2010 - 01:13 AM UTC
K50 wing has no panel lines. F500 has

pikas01
Visit this Community
Taipei, Taiwan / 台灣
Joined: March 31, 2010
KitMaker: 29 posts
Model Shipwrights: 0 posts
Posted: Thursday, May 20, 2010 - 06:58 PM UTC



This one.